„Talk AUT loud – but low-key“
Autism-Talk with Maja Toudal und Bo Hejlskov Elvén
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About This Transcript
The following section is a verbatim transcription of our audio recording. Please note:
- This transcript is not a journalistically edited interview.
- Our process involves data-secure European audio mining, followed by editorial verification and refinement
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If you wish to quote us or our guests
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Thank you for your curiosity and understanding. Mirjam & Marco
Author’s Note on the Transcript:
Spoken language, when written down, is not always perfectly correct or unambiguous. I have gently edited the text to preserve the natural flow of the spontaneous conversation. For this reason, some linguistic imperfections remain.
To make the text easier to read, punctuation has been adjusted to reflect sense units and pauses, which are typical of spoken language. This means:
Instead of long, winding sentences, you’ll find more frequent periods. Or even three… When someone pauses to think. Or searches for the right words. Then a sentence might just trail…
Now, enjoy reading!
Mirjam
Ambience: (Audience applauding at AUTEA Conference 2026, Neue Schmiede, Bielefeld; applause transitions into intro music)
0:00:07
Intro
Music: Joss Peach – Cherry On The Cake, licensed via sonoton.music
Narrator: Spektrakulär – Parents Exploring Autism.
Mirjam Rosentreter: Hello, my name is Mirjam Rosentreter. I’m a journalist and the mother of a son on the autism spectrum. And I’m not doing this alone. With me is Marco Tiede…
Marco Tiede: Yeah, Moin! I’m also the father of a boy on the spectrum. And I work as a therapist and consultant.
Mirjam Rosentreter: There’s also a shorter version of this podcast, the Kurzpod. You can find the transcript for this episode on our website, spektrakulär.de.
Narrator: Today, with Christine Werk, a social work student, mother of two autistic sons, and herself on the spectrum.
Music: (fades out)
Podcast Conversation
0:00:43
Marco Tiede: Today, with Maja Toudal, autistic psychologist and author from Denmark by my side.…
Mirjam Rosentreter: …And with Bo Hejlskov Elvén, psychologist and author from Sweden!
A warm welcome to our first international podcast episode, both of you! Today, we are supported by a very attentive pair of interpreters. I just heard them briefly in my ear, which made me pause in confusion for a moment. But I hope we’ll all get used to it.
Thank you so much for doing this from your interpreters’ booth!
And we are also supported by a wonderful audience here at the international AUTEA conference “Autism in Dialogue” in Bielefeld. Many thanks!
Ambience: (Audience applauds)
0:01:30
Mirjam Rosentreter: Our topic today is autism-friendly communication. Or as we’ve called it: Talk AUT Loud – But unflustured! (Audience laughs)
It’s about communicating and being together – between autistic and non-autistic people, especially within families. How can we better attune to each other? And how can we as parents adapt our communication with our children so they understand us better? How can we do this as professional supporters? After all, Marco is also active in this context, in autism therapy. And how can autistic individuals make their needs and wishes understandable to us?
With the two of you, we’re bringing together very different perspectives:
First, that of a psychologist who is herself autistic. And a mother! (smiles) Yes, that’s an added layer.
Then, that of one of the most renowned experts in handling challenging situations calmly in everyday care.
And Marco’s perspective from autism therapy and crisis intervention.
As well as both of our experiences from parent work and parent self-help groups.
So, we want to understand how we can communicate more clearly and understandably. And how misunderstandings and crises can be prevented through this. I thought we could start with a practical example. There’s one in your book here, Bo – Acting, Evaluating, and Changing – that really touched me. Because I’ve experienced something similar myself with my son. It’s the example of Pernilla, who annoyed her carers with the same repeated question…
0:03:09
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: Yes! (laughs, Audience laughs)
Mirjam Rosentreter: (laughing) It’s so nice to see the smile coming to your face! (Podcast round laughs)
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: Yes! (laughs)
Marco Tiede: You remember!
Mirjam Rosentreter: Marco, could you read this short example from the book for us?
Marco Tiede: Yes.
Mirjam Rosentreter: Oh, I see, I need to bring it over to you! Oh my goodness, now I have to move all my equipment over there.
Marco Tiede: Yes, thank you.
Mirjam Rosentreter: Look here…
Marco Tiede: Yep!
Mirjam Rosentreter: From here to here…
0:03:34
Marco Tiede: So, Pernilla stood out because she kept asking the same question, as you mentioned. She did this multiple times a day. And it didn’t matter if she had already asked the same person…
Mirjam Rosentreter: She always asked about the day of the week. We should probably mention that…
Marco Tiede: Yes, about the day of the week…
Mirjam Rosentreter: “What day is it today?”
Marco Tiede: And today would be Monday, right? No: Tuesday! (audience laughs)
Mirjam Rosentreter: And when it’s broadcast, it’ll also be Tuesday!
Marco Tiede: Today is Monday… Well, okay, I… Yes, today is Tuesday, right.
Mirjam Rosentreter: It’s perfect! Today is Tuesday…
Marco Tiede: Now I’m completely confused…
Mirjam Rosentreter: …And also on the day it’s broadcast!
Marco Tiede: … Let me start again, okay? (Mirjam laughs, audience laughs) So: So: This happened several times a day… I hope I won’t have to repeat this now (smiles)… and it didn’t matter if… (smiles)… And it made no difference if she had already asked the same person. The carers had tested different ways. They answered the question. They showed Pernilla the weekly schedule… “Here, um: Monday! Tuesday! So, right? Uh…” They asked counter-questions like, “So, which day do we have today…?” And usually, Pernilla would answer with the correct day.
Some had tried ignoring the question and not answering her. This had the effect that Pernilla became pushy and kept repeating her question. After a few months, the carers began avoiding Pernilla, ignoring her. And when she entered the room, they pretended not to notice her at all, hoping that Pernilla would stop with the constant questions about the day of the week. But that didn’t happen.
Pernilla only changed the question: “Do you have a vagina or a penis?” she now asked. Some in the carer group found this even more annoying. They decided to totally ignore Pernilla, even when she asked this. After a few weeks, Pernilla started grabbing the carers between the legs.
0:05:46
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: Yes! (smirks)
Marco Tiede: Haha!
Ambience: (Audience laughs)
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: And is not that uncommon. The thing is… yeah… To understand this behaviour, we need to understand a personality concept called extraversion. Extraversion works like this: If you’re low in extraversion, you think within yourself. And if you’re high in extraversion, you only think when you talk to people. So, you need to be mirrored by other people in order to understand them. In most of us, it’s a normal distribution – most of us are in the middle. On average, autistic people are a little bit below the normal distribution of extraversion. That means: Some autistic people are a little more on the introverted side. But there are also those who are extraverts.
And then there’s another problem. Because on this scale, if you’re a little on the extravert side and you get stressed, you need more support. If you’re a little on the introvert side and you get stressed, you withdraw from people. So, in autism, we have two groups: a big one and a small one. And the small one here, we call them the autistic extraverts. So, it’s a personality factor. But it’s part of the normal distribution – everybody has some level of extraversion. But if someone is highly extraverted and has poor social skills, of course there’s a problem.
What she wants to do is: she wants to talk to people. So, she wants small talk. And then she asks: “What day is it today?” And people say: “Tuesday.” And she likes that and the question, because she knows the answer. Because she doesn’t like surprises. So, of course you’ll ask a question you already know the answer to in order to make small talk. But the staff, they think that she is communicating.
They think that she wants to know and that she is unsure. So, they make a schedule and say: “Go and see!” and “Go and see!” – and that’s not what she wants. She wants to talk. So, she says: “What day is it today?” And they say: “Tuesday.” And then, after some time, she says: Oh, that’s not a very good conversation. I’ll try again. “What day is it today?” And they say: “Tuesday.” And it didn’t… the quality of that small talk is actually quite low.
To get a better quality, we need to talk differently. “What day is it today?” – “Tuesday.” – “What day is it today?” – “What? I think I forgot it. Is it Tuesday?” – “Yes, it’s Tuesday.” – “What do you do on Tuesdays?” Suddenly, we have small talk. And that’s what she needs. And when… what happens here is that some people say we should ignore the behaviour, because then she would stop.
It’s called ‘killing the behaviour’ – it’s a behaviouristic concept. And that means that you’ll take… Her need for small talk will just be suppressed. And you need to understand: An extraverted person needs another person to mirror them in order to understand that they exist. When we stop talking to them, then she feels like she is disappearing. And that’s why she goes to questions that will push a little harder. And if that doesn’t work, she will grab or do something like that. And the behaviours we have in this person group – like asking the same question all the time – include pinching, especially here. Have you ever tried that?
It really works, doesn’t it? Yeah. It’s a… Grabbing is one. Taking people’s glasses – Plop –that’s really effective as well. But they do it in order to get… What do you say? To get other people to react to them. So, we’re looking for reactions. Because that’s what small talk is. Small talk is giving and taking and turn-taking. And when nothing else helps, she will take some glasses and break them, and something will happen. It works all the time.
The thing here is that… Daniel Rippon, he is a British psychologist. He did a PhD where he looked at stress factors and staff. And the most stressing factor for staff was, of course, other staff. (Audience laughs)
But the second most stressful factor was people asking the same question again and again. And they measured stress and stress hormones in the hair. So it was actually… they could measure it. If you work with somebody who asks the same question all the time, the staff get very stressed. But I think it’s because they didn’t understand the situation. When I work with people like that, we find a way of talking to that person. And we also think: Yes, we shouldn’t react so much to the behaviour. But we have to fill the need. And hopefully beforehand. So, we try to do a lot of things that make the person laugh, that make us interrupt the person in a good way. And that’s time-consuming. But it’s time-consuming anyway.
0:10:29
So, it doesn’t matter. It’s just better to do it beforehand. Because our social initiatives have a higher social quality than her social initiatives. So, we want to communicate with her beforehand. So, we… And then something happens: It’s… In a staff group, if you have one of these people and she comes into the room, staff turn their backs. And they do it because it’s difficult. So, they work… I call it ‘working with the back against the person’. And what happens is that they hope that she contacts somebody else. And that means that when she approaches somebody else, they won’t answer her because they hope somebody else will answer her. So, everything gets very slow around her. And she gets very frustrated. And that’s when the behaviour escalates.
0:11:19
So, what we need to do is: If I’m in charge, I’m in charge for an hour. I answer every question. I try to make a good conversation. I really concentrate on her. And then all the rest don’t have to think about it. And then, after one hour, another person takes over. That’s it. And I can relax. And then the other person gives her full attention. And then people say: ‘But that’s a lot of attention!’ – ‘Yes, but she is taking that attention anyway.’ So, we might as well put in high quality. Because then we might be able to do ten minutes. And then twenty minutes. And we don’t have to do it again – ten minutes and then another twenty minutes. Because it’s a need that we need to fulfil.
Mirjam Rosentreter: How did this story resonate with you? I noticed, Maja, that you were really following along. Were you able to relate to Pernilla and understand how she might feel when this occurs?
Maja Toudal: You know, I very much agree with Bo. I think she’s looking for connection. She’s looking to be part of a social group, and she doesn’t know how. And so, because she doesn’t have the strategies to do it in a way that the staff might find more interesting, engaging, or likeable, she falls back on something she does know how to do. But the fact is: If she doesn’t have the strategies, then someone else has to either have the strategies or get them and then commit it for her.
0:12:20
Because what she is looking for is that human connection. And when we punish that seeking of attention by ignoring it, by turning our backs – physically – to a human being who is looking for connection, who is looking for a very basic human need, then we’re punishing something that is just human. And we’re punishing her for not having the strategy.
Maybe it’s the autistic part of me, and not the professional part, that’s reacting right now. But I find it cruel.
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: Yeah. It is very cruel.
0:12:52
Maja Toudal: I would really look for – as you say – try to find other ways to respond to her questions. If you can read that need for conversation that she doesn’t maybe know how to have. But also, then, be aware that some days she may or may not have the capacity for the unpredictability of new responses to her question. So, some days she might react very positively to: “Oh, well, you know it is Tuesday. What do you normally do on Tuesdays?” Or some other variation. And some days that might be too much. And she’s just looking for: “It’s Tuesday.” – “Oh, yes, I know it’s Tuesday.” – “What day is it?” – “It’s Tuesday.” – “Yes, it’s Tuesday.” (laughing) Some days that’s maybe her capacity. And that’s okay, too. But she’s still just wanting to connect and feel to be part of something. The part of a herd.
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: Exactly.
0:14:45
Marco Tiede: And probably she also gets a sense of security from being able to say that, right?
Maja Toudal: Yes, and that she’s allowed to seek that connection. That she is allowed to be part of it. And that she won’t be excluded for trying. And actually – that’s something that is interesting – we do know that there are some autistic people who are very introverted and don’t seek social connection that much. But there are actually also studies showing that in autistic and non-autistic interactions, it is very often the non-autistic people who reject the social initiatives of autistic people. So, it’s not that we just don’t want to be social. It’s also that we have so much experience of being rejected. And I think that applies to any group, any subgroup within autistic people.
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: Hm. I think in the part of the autistic community that has the ability to have a job and function quite well, when you have the discrepancy between your social need and your social abilities, it does lead to… The higher the difference, the more the suffering.
Maja Toudal: Yeah.
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: I find that group to be the most depressive.
Maja Toudal: Yeah. And anxious.
0:16:17
Bo Hejlskov Elvén:Yes, absolutely. The most ancient… Yes, anxious and anxiety. But I worked with a guy, he… who was very into music. And he would always talk about music. And everybody didn’t like to talk about music all the time. So, he had big problems having friends and who was very… who was very on people. In a way that was not working very well. And then we thought: “He needs to job.” We got him a job at a record store.
Besides, you know, I’m old. (Audience and Maja laughs) There used to be record stores. Yeah. So, he was working in a record store. But the thing is, there he didn’t want to sell people the records they wanted. There were more contacts that sheard: “You shouldn’t buy that music. Listen to this one instead.” (Audience and Podcasters laugh) So, two weeks he had a job. And then he got fired again there. So, there was so much suffering. Because in every situation he comes into, he has the tendency to blow it up. Although he goes for the best emotional contact.
0:17:21
Mirjam Rosentreter: As I mentioned, we had a very similar experience with my son. He also had that annoying question every morning, with all the teachers at school. And the teachers he already got along well with weren’t bothered by it at all. They said: “Why shouldn’t I answer? He’s a nice guy and funny. At least, that’s what I think. We always joke about it.”
Others turned it into a huge problem. They came to me as his mother and said: “This doesn’t go over well with the other kids. They find it annoying too. They make fun of him. And we need to make sure he changes this behavior.” And then it all ends up with me as the mother. And then I’m put in this mediator role, which always really bothered me. Because I kept thinking: How do people come to this mindset? That the goal is to change a behavior just so it doesn’t annoy anyone anymore – as a teacher!
The question I wanted to ask now is: We experience the same thing at home as parents with our children. They love to monologue. They sometimes „talk our ears off“ or – as we say it in Germany – “talk a fridge to our ear” about their favourite topic. And we’d also like to get to a point where we can have a dialogue. A real back-and-forth. Where our children might also ask us a question once in a while. How do we get there?
0:18:51
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: For me that behaviour is very much the result of the disability. That means if we want to change the behaviour, we need to change the disability and that’s not possible. So, for me it’s totally about accepting. It’s about understanding: That’s this thing what he does and we need to adapt to it in a way that works.
0:19:16
Another example: I live in the city of Malmö in Sweden. Malmö is one of Europe’s most diverse cities when it comes to ethnicity. Sweden… We have two cities in Sweden that are extremely diverse: One is Södertälje where eighty percent of the population is of Arabic descent. In Malmö, fifty percent of the 300,000 residents are born outside of Europe. I live there. It’s a fantastic city.
But we had one problem with this guy: And that was that he would – in order to make contact – sneak his hand between the buttocks of men and then squeeze. But only with black-haired men. And that was because in some cultures there is a stronger macho ideal. We have a lot of people from South America, and many from Arabic-speaking countries. They would react much better, he thought. So, if it was a brown-haired guy, he wouldn’t do it. Of course, he understood that there are differences between people. He just thought: It’s about hair colour! But he would still grump and squeeze – yeah (smirks) – those parts.
0:20:29
And what we did there was: Whenever a black-haired guy got a job there, we would give him protection he could wear for the first two months. And then he would do it maybe five times and nothing would happen. And then we would just stop that person. And then we could start working with him. How could we then connect with him in a good way? Because if… If he didn’t want to go behind you, we could connect with him. But otherwise, he would just try to get behind you. That was difficult when we started to work with him.
So, we need to understand: It’s part of the disability. We cannot change that. So, we need to adapt to it in a way. So, we can start working. And that’s very important, I think. So, it’s not about adapting him. It’s quite simple.
0:21:11
For me as a neuropsychologist, it’s not difficult: I do not want to train people. I want to give them the right to be whoever they are. And then they can decide if they want to train something. I think that’s very important. And most kids want to train things. So, it’s not a problem. If he just wants to, grab those moments and start training. But never say: “He needs to train that!” That’s not my job. My job is to say: “He has human rights. And one of them is autonomy.” Autonomy is a basic human right. So, if that’s what he wants to do, we need to be able to adapt to it in a way. So, it’s not a problem for us to build a connection in order to work.
And that means we might do things like giving protection to staff. And that’s it. And then we see how things develop. That’s what I would do.
0:22:03
Maja Toudal: I think it’s also sometimes just recognizing that asking the same question over and over again or doing the same thing over again is one of the ways we feel save in a very unpredictable world. Sometimes other people can find something we do annoying. But for us it’s just… It feels save.
I know this example is much milder, but I had a series of cartoons that I would watch over and over and over again as a child. I don’t know how many hundreds of times I watched those VHS-tapes and I don’t know how much my mother hated it. But it felt save to me. I knew exactly what was going to happen, when it was going to happen. I knew what the characters were going to say. And the sounds that were coming, when they would shout and when they would speak softly. I knew exactly what would happen. I knew those movies by heart!
And I think if I watched them today, I would still virtually know them by heart. (smiles) And I haven’t watched them for thirty years, you know (laughs).
It can seam annoying and sometimes disruptive even, but it’s safe for us.
Marco Tiede: Hm.
Maja Toudal: I think it’s also sometimes just recognizing that asking the same question over and over or doing the same thing repeatedly is one of the ways we feel safe in a very unpredictable world. Sometimes other people can find something we do annoying. But for us, it’s just… It feels safe.
I know this example is much milder, but I had a series of cartoons that I would watch over and over and over again as a child. I don’t know how many hundreds of times I watched those VHS tapes, and I don’t know how much my mother hated it. But it felt safe to me. I knew exactly what was going to happen, when it was going to happen. I knew what the characters were going to say. And the sounds that were coming—when they would shout and when they would speak softly. I knew exactly what would happen. I knew those movies by heart!
And I think if I watched them today, I would still virtually know them by heart (smiles). And I haven’t watched them for thirty years, you know (laughs).
It can seem annoying and sometimes even disruptive, but it’s safe for us.
0:23:40
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: Yeah. And I also think it’s actually a… It’s a common thing. People without autism also want to feel safe.
Maja Toudal: The predictable!
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: Yeah. We like that.
Maja Toudal: Yeah! We love it actually!
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: Yes, so, we just see it’s more important in the autistic world. And it might be a different activity for safety. But the concept is human.
Maja Toudal: It’s completely this.
0:24:05
Mirjam Rosentreter: When I picked this example from the book for Marco, it reminded you of a situation. One that really upset you as a father who also works as a consultant in schools. When a teacher once said: “I can’t just let this go! I have to save face here!” That’s what this guy said to you…
Marco Tiede: Oh, I see.
Mirjam Rosentreter: Yes. That… the attitude behind it. When people take a stance that completely contradicts a practical approach.
0:24:38
Marco Tiede: Okay, I thought you were referring to a different example. One involving my son. Since we’re also speaking as parents.
I can briefly go back to that teacher. He said: “Well, the girl has to finish her tasks first. Then she gets her little sticks that she loves to play with.’ Which were clearly fidget toys or stim tools, I assume.
And then I said: “What if she doesn’t do that?” – “Well, then we do a bit of didactic gymnastics and pretend she finished the task. Then she gets her sticks. Because, you know, we have to save face.”
Then I gave him a bit of a strange look and said: “But what if those are her stim tools? The ones that give her a sense of security. And help her process all the sensory input in the first place. Then it’s kind of like telling someone in a wheelchair: ‘Just leave the wheelchair here. Go to the door over there, and you’ll get it back.’ You know? It’s like taking away someone’s crutches or assistive device. Or, for example, taking my hearing aids and saying: ‘Now let’s listen.’ And then you can put them back on.” Thanks (ironically)!
0:25:50
Mirjam Rosentreter: And which example with your son were you thinking of? The experience you mentioned right now?
Marco Tiede: It actually fits with the interruption you just described. Like when you couldn’t finish watching those films.
So, it took me a long time as a father to realize that my son also needs a transition.
When I picked him up from his playgroup and he was still playing. And I came from work, a bit stressed and annoyed, and said: “Come on, get ready, we need to go!”
And then all hell broke loose! He would regularly run away screaming: “No, Dad, I don’t want to! I don’t want to!” Because he was still in the middle of playing, in this activity he had just gotten into. Where he felt safe and familiar. And then I come in and rip him out of it.
Until eventually I had an idea: I would come in first, say hello, let him know I’m there. I would go to the others first. So, he would just notice me. And maybe already know: We’ll be leaving soon.
But at that point, I didn’t know yet that he was on the spectrum. That realization came a few years later, because I kept having these conflicts and thought: “Hmm, this reminds me of my clients.” Then we finally had the idea: “Oh, maybe he’s autistic too!”
But I kept trying to understand: What makes my children feel safe?And what do they need for these transitions? Such as much more time. And that leads me to ask you: How can we take what we’ve just discussed on a professional level and apply it to the parental level? So that parents get an idea of how to communicate in this regard. So that it’s clear for the child. And so that parents also understand their child’s communication. Because this screaming, this refusing – that’s communication as well. I didn’t understand that for a long time either.
0:28:09
Maja Toudal: Obviously some behaviours are more extreme. And you need to sometimes act quickly. I have a toddler and toddlers do crazy things! Regardless of whether they’re autistic or not. And sometimes you have to do something very, very quickly to prevent a child from getting hurt. And they don’t like it. But you just have to.
So, in situations that are… If there’s anything that’s dangerous, you step in first. And then we figure out how to resolve the situation. If it’s not immediately dangerous. Then we go back into trying to understand: Why is the child reacting that way?
So, I’m going to use a personal example. And this is very mild. I don’t actually know if my daughter’s autistic yet. I very much think she’s maybe inherited my ADHD. But we’ll see. (smiles) She sometimes will get access to an IPad at Grandma’s Place. And she will get very upset if you turn it off. Well, of course! Because you’re interrupting what she’s doing. But if you give her the option of turning it off herself, she can do it.
It’s about… Where can we understand why the reaction is coming? And how can we give the person – regardless of age, regardless of support needs… How can we give them the autonomy to act, to have some control in the situation? Usually, you’ll find that any reaction is decreased. So, autonomy, self-determination, it’s key all the time.
And as we get older, of course, having more of that. Self-empowerment becomes more important. Like it needs to expand with development. So, it’s also allowing yourself sometimes to challenge. Am I keeping, am I keeping the child back by, not giving them more autonomy? And sometimes giving more and teaching more and being in that, even though it’s difficult.
0:30:57
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: I also think we need to understand the concept of autonomy. Decy and Ryan, who formulated what we call self-determination-theory… They say: “Autonomy is a feeling.”
For example: I drove down here in my car. So, yesterday morning I went out to my car and then I made the first decision: Do I drive on the right side of the road or the left side of the road? No, I didn’t (smiles). There was no option there. I drove on the right side of the road. Because in Germany, Denmark and Sweden, it’s right side of the road, the countries I was driving through. The next decision was, when I came to the first crossroads. It was a crossover where I had the triangle. Then I had to decide: Should I respect the triangle or should I just go? No, I respected the triangle! So, all the way down here I followed most of the rules. Did I have autonomy in the car? Did I decide where to go? No, Marie Conty did (who invited him to the AUTEA-conference – M.R.). Did I decide which way to take? Yes. But I use GPS, so I know where there’s a Stau. You know in Hamburg? You know how Hamburg is, right? So, I trust the GPS.
So, what is left of my autonomy? I can decide what music to listen to! But only if I’m alone in the car. Because I play music, and I play old music! From the eighteen fifties to the nineteen hundreds, that’s my special interest. And there’s a lot of recordings of the same song. So, I make playlists which is one song in fifty different versions. And I listen to them again and again and again. And nobody can do that except me. So that means: I can never listen to my music when there’s other people in the car. Because then I’m actually limiting their autonomy and I’m not supposed to do that. That’s not autonomy. So, I had… The only autonomy I had, because I was alone in the car: I could decide the music. But I felt like I’m the king of the Autobahn (deepens his voice) because I have four hundred and twenty eight horsepowers I do not use! (audience laughs)
That’s the sense of autonomy. And I think a lot of autism pedagogics is about finding: How we can give people a sense of autonomy. Because we actually need frameworks to do that. Because if I didn’t have the traffic rules, I would never go to Bielefeld. I would only come two hundred meters and it would be a crash and nothing happened.
0:33:25
Maja Toudal: And that’s the thing! Because: You do have the autonomy to drive on the left side, but there would be consequences. And you wouldn’t like those consequences.
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: No, of course. So, I choose. And that’s the point. Choosing the structure in order to actually get a feeling of autonomy.
Maja Toudal: And choosing the thing where you get positive social feedback. And this is not a thing of talking about reward and punishment. But more so that: When things work for all of us, they work for all of us. Hey, wow, this is great! We get to do this thing where nobody gets mad at each other. That’s awesome! And that works for a social animal like us. So, it’s about showing also: What are the options for doing the thing in a different way. That others are going to respond positively to.
0:34:24
Mirjam Rosentreter: Because of our special communication situation here during this recording… Where we’re not interrupting each other: We need to quickly coordinate internally about which direction you want to take now, Marco? And which question I still see open in the room – namely, the one about reciprocal dialogue. I asked about that earlier…
Marco Tiede: I do have something specific to say about autonomy and structure…
Mirjam Rosentreter: Yes…
Marco Tiede: Do you remember what your question was? I was wondering earlier…
Mirjam Rosentreter: I asked a question earlier about how, as a mother, I can manage to turn my child’s constant monologues into a reciprocal conversation. And I think we haven’t quite gotten to answering that question yet, and it’s very important to me. But I can also ask it later, and we’ll just edit this part out of the short version…
Marco Tiede: Okay. Well…
Mirjam Rosentreter: And let’s stay with the topic you’re discussing now, but I’d still like to circle back to dialogue, to conversation, to talking with each other – which is our theme today…
Marco Tiede: Maybe this also ties in a bit. You asked how we can turn the conversation into a reciprocal dialogue without overly interfering with the autonomy of a child who monologues. And at the same time, this reciprocity does need a structure. From what I understood from you, Maja, it’s like this: I could choose to drive on the left, maintaining my autonomy, but that would lead to painful consequences. But the structure – meaning, choosing to drive on the right instead – then gives me the autonomy to enjoy the music I’ve chosen…
Marco Tiede: And maybe that’s the balance between structure – not as coercion, but as a safe framework that enables autonomy. That’s how I understood it from you. And this connects to the question: How do we invite a child who monologues – which they often do for reasons of security, to feel safe and comfortable – but also, how can we invite them into a structure of reciprocity? I think this is often a fascinating question for parents…
0:36:50
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: Yes. I have an autistic son. When he was a teenager, he was very interested in computer-gaming. And he could talk about that. He could talk about other things for about two minutes. And then we talked about computer gaming again. Then at the age of twenty-five, he was working as a support worker at the regional hospital, where he was working with people’s computer problems.
And then he suddenly said one day: “I’m not interested in computers anymore.” He said: “I’m interested in trees.” And then he educated himself to an arborist. He has started climbing trees as a sport, as a sport called tree climbing. He actually became both the Swedish and the Danish number one. In both Sweden and Denmark, because he’s got double – what do you call it – citizenship! So, he competed one time for Sweden in European masterships and one time for Denmark also. And he became wide! He had spaghetti arms. And then ten years later he was this wide.
And then three years ago he said: “I’m not interested in trees anymore. I’m interested in electric cars.” So, now he’s an engineer and he and I are building a Fiat Topolino from nineteen thirty-eight into an electric car. We have a workshop together. And I like this interest because I’m interested too. (audience laughs) But my experience with him is that he monologues. And I need to be interested in what he’s interested in or to talk to him. I cannot say: We should train him in reciprocity. He can do that, No problem! He does it on the internet all the time with all his Asperger friends. It’s not a problem.
He lives a very different life than I do. He lives in an apartment with his wife and his girlfriend and his wife’s boyfriend. And yeah, it’s a different life. They like board games. And I need to be interested in what he’s interested in. Because he cannot be interested in what I’m interested in, because he’s got disability. But as long as I need to invade his interest, then I become somebody he wants to talk to. So, I need to make myself worth talking to. I think that’s important. And then we can talk about other stuff. When I’m enough interested in what he’s interested in. Then once in a while we can have that other talk, but only once in a while.
0:39:18
Marco Tiede: So, immersing ourselves in their special interests because that creates intrinsic motivation for conversation, yes?
Mirjam Rosentreter: Yes, and maybe not doing it so clumsily like (Marco laughs). Maybe you know our trailer – where Martin, he was our second guest, on the podcast – told us about this in a test podcast. He was also a computer game nerd. And his mother always used that as an excuse to get household chores done and so on. But one day, she just suddenly sad down on the edge of his desk and said, “Tell me, what are you doing there?” And he was completely flustered: What does she want from me? Why is she suddenly showing up here? And her interest didn’t seem genuine to him at that moment.
0:40:03
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: Exactly. Exactly. I think it’s a simple thing for most people. If people are interested in me, of course I want to talk to them. And if you have difficulties in the social realm, of course we need to immerse ourselves in that world in order to be predictable. And only when you’re predictable, you can be talked to.
Maja Toudal: And when you’re interesting. And let’s face it: There comes a point in a child’s life where parents just aren’t interesting. And we’re not going to talk to you for about ten years. And that’s not autism, that’s just development. But I think for autistic children there’s also the aspect of – and I hate to approach this: But usually there’s more than one autistic person in a family! (laughs) And that – I really don’t like the term ‘lack of reciprocity’, I really don’t like the term – but that can exist in more than one person in a family. And when it does and when we’re stressed… By the way, it doesn’t matter what neurotype we have… We become more rigid and we become less flexible to have conversations with.
So, I think, when you’re expecting a child to not monologue, you have to recognize firstly: Why are they monologuing? Are you interesting to talk to about other things? Are you perhaps trying or does it feel like to them that you are trying to push a topic onto them? That they are very much not interested in? And that actually feels rigid to them!
And then add: What’s the current stress level? Is the child stressed? Are you stressed? How is that entering the conversation? So, if you’re trying to avoid the monologues, you have to create an environment in which there’s an alternative. And sometimes that’s difficult, but that’s okay.
0:42:39
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: Daniel Stern had a good concept. He’s a psychologist. He said: “Attunement, you need to tune in”, and he was talking about the attunement of affect with the baby. But I think with an autistic person, no matter the age you need to tune in. We need to be on the same Wavelength.
And I’ve learned that with my son when he was interested in computer playing. I do not play computer. I have a disability of balance. So, I cannot look at the screen where things are moving, because then I fall over. So, I had to read about his games. But if I didn’t know the game, I was not worth talking to. So, I needed to know the games. And then I talked to people and I say: “Oh my son, he’s only playing computer games!” They asked: “What game is he playing?” – “I don’t know computer.” They say: “Stupid you! Of course, you need to understand what game he’s playing!”
There’re so many different games, there’s so many different ways of gaming! And you need to understand: Why is he interested in gaming? Is the social part? Is it the winning part? What part is it? Because if you want to give him an alternative, it must fill the same needs that the game does. So you need to get interested in order to talk to him at all, but also in order to present alternatives. Turn in
0:43:54
Maja Toudal: And also, by getting interested, maybe you will learn some of the value that they get from it. And recognize that it’s not a wasteful thing for them to put time into. But I get a lot of this with parents and their children playing computer games. And I always try to acknowledge that sometimes computer gaming can become an addiction. And it can be harmful in some ways. And there are certainly also communities in gaming that are not great. But the opposite is also true.
So, I play World of Warcraft. I’ve played World of Warcraft for since it was launched so more than twenty years. And I’m a part of a guild and we meet up. I haven’t been there for a while because I had a kid. But we meet up otherwise every year in real life. And we come from all over Europe. And we meet up and we socialize. These are real friends!
When I had my child, I had postpartum depression. And I wrote with my guilt what I was going through. And one of them from England and one of them from Holland dropped what they were doing and came to Denmark to live with me for a week to support me. And so, these communities also exist. And I think sometimes by not engaging with our children’s interests, we can forget to see what positives they might be getting from it. And sometimes those can be skills. Sometimes they are real friendships, even though they exist online. Sometimes it’s something we can’t measure, but if we pay attention we’ll see it.
0:46:00
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: I never understood when my boy was a child that tree climbing could be a career. (audience laughs) So I never supported him in tree climbing when he was ten years old. But he actually made a living off it for ten years. So sometimes we need to understand: Everything is good.
0:46:20
Mirjam Rosentreter: When our son was very young… I’ll let you continue, Marco – I once emailed an autistic psychologist after finding an article by him in a thick book on autism at the city library. And I asked him: “How do I start a conversation with my child?” And he said, “Only through his special interest.” So actually, I already knew the answer, but I found yours to be much more profound—it went much deeper.
0:46:46
Marco Tiede: So ultimately – to come back to your original question from earlier – this his aversion we might develop toward monologues actually creates a stressful environment for the autistic child. That might be another opportunity for us as parents to work a bit on our resilience – or, rather, our acceptance. Resilience certainly plays a role in certain situations, but acceptance – like ‘Okay, my child likes monologues, they’re comfortable with that’. Means I let them do it. And maybe at some point a window will open. Such as through certain games or interests where we can then become part of it. You had something else to add on that, too.
0:47:39
Mirjam Rosentreter: Yes, if we believe that development is possible—that’s the key.
That’s also what Imke Heuer, an autistic woman who’s been on our podcast before and is a scientist, told us. So if we convey to the child that we believe something is achievable—that’s the crucial point.
I’ve lost my train of thought a bit right now. It’s really hard to stay focused on this. Sorry, I just need to be transparent about this for a moment.
I wanted to go back to one point. When we’re in a conversation with the children and we notice that our children are starting to get nervous—that the situation is no longer comfortable for them, and they’d actually prefer to leave—but we haven’t yet reached the point that’s really important. So we need to prepare them for something—for example, what they need to know—because otherwise it’ll become even more stressful for them.
How can we manage that: work together to bring that stress level back down a bit? Because you, Maja, are also an expert in stress management.
0:48:49
Maja Toudal: But one of the first things I tend to give parents is the list of the ten w’s. So, these are ten questions about: What are we going to be doing? Who are we doing it with? How long? Ten questions that you can go through and answer so that the child knows exactly what is expected. And this kind of gives the framework for a little bit calm. Because suddenly we’ve reduced the unpredictability.
What is important to me to include: When I give that list… And I didn’t come up with it. It’s been around for a while. What I tend to tell people is that not all ten questions will be equally important to each child or to each autistic person. Because sometimes it’s adults too. But some questions will be the more important ones to have the answers to. So, focus on those! Focus on figuring out which ones are important. Because we can’t hold everything in our heads all the time. It’s too much information! So, figure out which are the important questions.
And then of course I also will go into kind of the energy accounting aspect of things right? So we know what we’re going to be doing. How can we reduce the amount of energy that it costs to do that thing? Do we need any accommodations? Do we need noise cancelling headphones? Do we need, do we need any sensory blockers? Do we need what I call an emergency door? A way to leave the situation quickly. What do we need? What supports do we have to put in place? So, things like that I try to talk through.
And then, if possible, I always want to include the child in these discussions. I want to know from the child: What is it that stresses you out? Because sometimes, very often parents don’t know. And actually, when we’re talking to the child about what it is, that’s stressful for them. They’ll say something and the parents go: (dramatically) “Really??? I had no idea! (audience laughs) “No, it was that simple! Actually, if you just did that thing I could do it.”
0:51:39
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: I also have an answer to that to complete, widen a little bit. I think a lot of times the things that we think the child needs to do might not be what the child needs to do. But sometimes it’s about what we expect the child to do. As a parent you need to be extremely open to the child finding its own way.
And one of the very difficult parts is he’s not going to school. He’s choosing not to go to school. And we will start to push and we will push. And the child will lock himself in the room and he will not talk to you three years. If you continue pushing. So as a parent, you need to be able to give in. There’s a Swedish comedian called Ronny Eriksson and he says: “It’s never too late to give up.” (audience laughs) And I think that’s a very good principle. Now that you really tried and it did not work now, it’s the time to give up. It’s never too late! Because the child will understand when you give up, it’s because of him that you accept his choice. And I think the most conflicts I’ve seen between kids and the parents are because the parents have a cultural way of thinking that you should do some things. You should finish school, you should do this, you should do that.
0:53:06
Maja Toudal: You should attend that wedding, or…
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: Exactly. In my family! Because fifty percent has a diagnosis of course, we have a silent room at every wedding. I mean otherwise it wouldn’t work. And We also have computers for people who didn’t bring their own. Because they might need a computer to sit by to just calm down. So, create all the things, like Maya said. Create all the possibilities to make it work. And then remember: It’s never too late to give in. I think that’s very important. Because when you give in, the child feels seen and that’s very important.
0:53:46
Maja Toudal: That’s one of the reasons I use this emergency exit strategy. So, in my profile I have a little bit of the pathological demand avoidance or pervasive need for autonomy.
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: Exactly, better word! (smiles)
Maja Toudal: So, the thing is for me: If I have to go and do something, I always have that sense of I can’t: But I can’t! And I know I can, but I can’t. If I know that there is an option for me to say: “I actually can’t do it.” Then I can do so much more!
But if I don’t have the option of not going to school. If I don’t have the option of not inviting my whole class to my birthday party. Including the ones that are bullying me. If I don’t have the option, then I definitely can’t! And then there’s just not going to be a birthday party at all. But if I have the option: “Would you like to do something else? Would you like to have it somewhere else than your house, so that your bully can’t see your things, can’t go into your room. Would you like to structure it differently? Would you like to have a set end time? So that you know exactly when they’re going to leave. And we always have the option of calling everybody on the day and saying: Oh, they got sick, Maya got sick. We don’t have the birthday. It’s canceled! Even if it’s not true.”
If I know I have the options, then I’m probably actually going to go through with it. And that’s the weird thing about the anxiety that sometimes comes along with autism and with a pervasive need for autonomy or just an anxiety about life in general is that: If we know we can say stop, when we really mean it, then we won’t say stop until we have to. But if we don’t have the option, then we’re going to say stop all the way. Then we’re just not going to cooperate at all!
056:22
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: And then there’s a lot of people saying: “But shouldn’t he learn to continue?” And then I always say: “No! No, but he should learn to back off when he needs to!” That’s a lot better ability to have in your life. To say no when you need to than to do things you didn’t.
I think it’s also about obedience. I’ve met obedient people. I mean, they are gang members, they’re extremely obedient! Oh yeah, I mean, I don’t want obedient children like that! And I don’t want people to continue: “We gave you this job. You should shoot this guy and you need to continue with it!” Because I’ve done a lot of assessments of kids in prison, autistic kids in prison. And they did things and they never stopped because somebody taught them to never back out. And that’s stupid. I mean, so of course we need to tell people: “You always have a chance to to back out.” It’s very important.
0:57:14
Maja Toudal: And to think for yourself. To feel what’s going on in you? What do you want actually? Why do you want that of course? Again, depending on development, I’m not going to go through that with a three-year-old. (smiles) We’re not there yet. No, but I think it’s very important.
I ended up skipping school a lot as a child. It started because of bullying. But then it continued. And throughout elementary school I was away from school anywhere between twenty and fifty percent each year. I just wasn’t present in school. My grades were fine. I knew how to do the things. But I wasn’t in school. And I could have been kicked out of school as a punishment. But what good would that have done right? Somebody could have looked at that and said: “Obviously Maya can’t do a thing. Obviously, she can’t show up when she’s supposed to. And we have to teach her obedience. Or we have to give up on her completely.” They could have said that. I could have said that about myself.
And now I have a master’s degree in psychology! And I’m here. And I help people. I don’t make a living. I never want anyone to think that the disability is gone. It’s not! But what I do makes a difference. And I think it’s important that we remember that wherever a person is at right now and whatever their support needs are right now, that doesn’t mean that that’s gonna be forever. And it doesn’t mean that just because you can’t do one thing, that you can’t do another. So, what is it? We’re expecting of someone that is actually unreasonable.
And for me it was going to school with my bullies and going to school after learning that that environment was actually hostile to me. Of course, I’m not going to go to school.
0:59:39
Mirjam Rosentreter: How old were you when you received your diagnosis? You were 16 or 17 at the time. It must have been a year before that big party.
Maja Toudal: 16.
Mirjam Rosentreter: When were you ready to talk to your parents about autism?
Maja Toudal: That’s trickier. My mother tried to talk about it right away. And I wasn’t there. I think mostly because at that time I felt like: Well, I’ve always known I was different. Now you’ve just given it a name. I’m fine with that. I don’t need to talk about it anymore. I know exactly what I’m like. And then a couple of years passed and I got more ready to talk about it. But I think I couldn’t talk about it with my parents. My dad lives in South Carolina, he’s pretty far away! (laughs bitterly) And my mother’s perspective on autism is so philosophically different that it was never a conversation. It was a discussion. It was me trying to convince her that I was allowed to be autistic the way I am. And her trying to convince me that I had to fit in to society. And that never resolved.
01:01:23
Marco Tiede: That’s a quite different reaction than the one I had with my son. Who, when he was diagnosed at 12, said: “Oh, that’s good then. So I’m not actually that daft after all.” At first, he was very interested in talking about it and we had some good conversations. But now at 17, he’s like: “Don’t make such a big deal out of it. Just drop it, it’s annoying.”
01:02:00
Maja Toudal: Yes, I think it’s been a development I’ve seen in the last few years. Cause there was a time period where being autistic was becoming OK. And now I actually see it turning back towards stigma amongst young people. I mean it’s becoming more of a bullying word again.
And so, I actually see the same thing in several of my teenage clients. That they’re like: “I don’t really want anyone to know.” And then I have a couple that are in good classes, there’s good social culture and they’re fine with being completely open about it. And with them I will still have that chat to say: “Okay, well, you can include diagnostic labels if you want to when you talk about something. But you don’t have to. You can talk about your support needs. However, if you want.”
And if they want to use diagnostic labels, go for it. And if they don‘, then don’t. But yeah, it’s very different for each person when they’re ready to talk about it with the world and with family members. And I think from the moment I got my diagnosis, I was ready to tell my friends no problem. But family was different.
01:03:24
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: We have in my town, there is every year, there’s a conference, a furries conference. Six thousand furries in the town! And they have a parade, and it’s wonderful. And last time there was interviews with some of them in the newspaper. And one of the leaders says: “Yes, we come here every year. We came here the last five years. And this year we asked five thousand autistic people at the same place.” He said: “All furries are autistic, but not all have a diagnosis. But for some of them it’s more difficult to come out as a furry as an autistic person. And for some people, furries is a society where you can hide your autism.”
So, we talk about autism like it’s a category and it’s hard. But you can choose to be a furry and you can choose not to be a furry. You can choose to be an autist and you can choose not to be an autist. In 2013 when DSM5 came, the diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome disappeared. And some people would say: “Oh no, then I’m going to be autistic instead!” And I said: “But it’s fantastic! Because that means now people can disappear to be Aspie. Now it’s not a diagnostic label anymore, now it’s a cultural label.” So, like you can choose to be a furry, you can choose to be an Aspie.
And in Malmö, where I live, we have an Aspie-culture, a very large group in Malmö. There are some big game developers. So that means they have hundreds of people working developing computer games. And that culture around them, those companies, it attracts autistic people from all over the world. So, the autistic subculture is very big in town. We have a big science fiction bookstore and everything like that. It Fits into this autistic way of life that we see in the nerdy autistic people and young people today.
And I think it’s still a choice. And we need to accept it as a choice. Instead of just thinking of it from a level of disability. Because for some people it’s disability. For some people it’s disability in some situations. And for some people the freedom of the autistic society actually means more than anything else. So, we need even, I know, Maya, you say: “We need different words.” As parents we need to talk about it as a disability, because otherwise we will not get support.
Maja Toudal: Sometimes we do, yeah.
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: But we also need to talk about it as a way of being. A being! I think we need to keep those two thoughts in our heads all time.
01:06:11
Maja Toudal: I was referring specifically when you’re navigating systems for support, you can sometimes be forced to change your language and talk about it.
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: But I think we need to be able to switch between those languages in order to understand the culture around it.
Maja Toudal: Definitely. And I think it’s important to recognize that we are who we are. We have the brains, the neurotypes that we do. We can’t do anything about that. But there is, there is a community out there! And there are sub communities all over the place that are very autism friendly. Because that’s where we gravitate. So, we actually become the majority sometimes.
And there are a lot of those spaces where there are diagnostic labels. And then there are some where there aren’t. People don’t know they’re autistic. They just all happen to be quietly somewhere behind. (smiles) No one might actually have the diagnosis or talk about it. But if you went there as a professional you would see it everywhere.
01:07:28
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: And I think as a professional when I’m invited into that culture, that’s fantastic. And I need to be very humble about that invitation, because that means somebody thinks that what I do is okay. And the right people think, it’s the autistic people. So, whenever I’m invited in, I see it as a fantastic gift.
Maja Toudal: It’s an honorary card.
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: It’s an honorary card, exactly.
01:07:55
Mirjam Rosentreter: And as a mother, I know there are these fantastic settings with really nice people where you’d fit right in. What can I do to nudge my child in that direction if the child just wants to be like everyone else all the time? I mean, like a neurotypical child.
Marco Tiede: I don’t think you can nudge it, can you?
01:08:19
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: Yes something… I have a pillow at home. I got as a sixty-year present from my son and his wife. Another son, he’s a psychologist. And he knows that I was doing consultancy work where he works actually. And then I got a question and I said: “Sometimes, when I get a question, I don’t know have an answer. And that’s because then the question is wrong.” (audience laughs) So, I got this pillow says: “When I cannot answer the question, it’s the question that’s wrong.” And I think it’s important. Because sometimes we put a question out there that there’s no answer to. And we need to reformulate it so it creates a possibility for an answer.
We cannot continue asking questions there are no answers for. So, we need to figure out how to ask the question in a way that there’s an answer. So, I think it’s a wrong question. The wrong question is: How can I push him into that area where he could thrive? No! How can I try to figure out where he could thrive? Because he’ll find his own way there. It’s just… I need to be open to anything. And I need to open up the possibilities. And then I just need, when he decides: I need to accept. Even though it might not be my culture, what I would choose. And that might be difficult.
Sometimes I work with a person. He’s got two personas. One is an alcoholic. So, he drinks for two weeks at a time he drinks vodka. He starts at seven o‘ clock in the morning. Every ten minutes he drinks vodka until he’s got a level. So, he goes out and then he sits with the drunken on the bench. And it’s a perfect social setting for him. He actually works in that setting! Everybody screams at people, it works perfectly! But then his body is not so good at drinking. So, after two weeks he gets very stressed.
So, he stops drinking and then he becomes a Nazi for two weeks. So, he’s a part of the… He’s in the Nazi Party for Two Weeks. And he hangs up the swastika on the wall and everything. And it took some time for people around him to accept his two personas. And I do understand none of them is very good for him. But those are the ones he picked.
And I worked with him when he lived, he’s an adult and he lives in residential facility. And we try to create others where can he get the same thing as he gets now. And now actually he’s not a Nazi anymore, he’s a communist. (audience laughs) Because he had a friend who his neighbour was a communist. So, they sometimes go out and then they drink alcohol together and then they puke but only on Mercedes and BMWs.
But that’s an interest and that’s a social interest about something. And I need to take down my morality and say: Maybe it’s not perfect, but maybe it’s the best he can do. We can try to find better ways. But it needs to be him that chooses it. Luckily, it’s very seldom to have these two interests.
01:11:26
Mirjam Rosentreter: Looking at our clock totally sober with a clear head, I see that we’ve already reached our time limit.
Marco Tiede: Although, I could listen to you both for hours… (laughs)
Mirjam Rosentreter: But I can’t just leave that answer hanging without asking: Is there a question I can always ask because it can’t possibly be wrong?
01:11:56
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: (laughs) “What do you want?” (audience and podcasters laugh)
Mirjam Rosentreter: Okay!
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: “How would you like me to talk to you?”
Mirjam Rosentreter: Yeah!
Bo Hejlskov Elvén: “When you’re stressed what would you like me to do?” And he meight say: “You should do like this.” And then it doesn’t work. And then you ask again: “Okay, it didn’t work. Then what would you do?” Always ask.
01:12:08
Maja Toudal: if I can tack on to this ‘pushing towards interest thing’. I would also say: Sometimes we don’t know what the options are. We know our interest, but we may not know what options there are for a community within that. And what you can sometimes do is: Introduce a couple of options. Know that they are probably not going to take those options. But then they know it exists. And then sometimes later they might find their own way. But presenting options and saying: “You don’t have to do it, this is something that’s there. We don’t have to.” That I think is always a good thing.
1:13:01
Mirjam Rosentreter: Thank you very much.
Marco Tiede: I think that’s a good closing line, right? Thank you…
Mirjam Rosentreter: Well, that’s…
(Audience applauds)
Marco Tiede: Mirjam, you wanted to say something else.
1:13:13
Mirjam Rosentreter: Thank you very much. Thank you both, Maja Toudal and Bo Hejlskov Elvén. For this enriching conversation, for your time. And for your willingness to give smart answers even to silly questions. If anyone wants to learn more about you, we recommend your books. I have a whole stack of them here. I’ll just list all the titles in the show notes so this episode doesn’t get any longer than it already is. But do read the books, they’re well worth it. You can also check out their podcasts. If you’re good at English. Maja’s podcast is in English. And your podcasts are in Swedish and Danish. That’s a bit more challenging, but maybe you’ll manage it too.
1:14:13
Marco Tiede: Learn Swedish. (smiles)
Mirjam Rosentreter: In our show notes, you’ll also find plenty of other perspective-broadening resources to tide you over until our next podcast in a month. This episode, which we’re recording here live today, live on tape, will be released on June 30th, by the way. You can listen to it everywhere podcasts are available: Spotify, Apple, what else is there? Deezer…
Marco Tiede: YouTube, yes.
Mirjam Rosentreter: And via our website, spektrakulär.de – spelled with an AE. And for those who prefer reading over listening, there’s always a transcript of our episodes – at least for the longer conversations. So, you can read through the conversation again later.
Marco Tiede: And in different languages.
Mirjam Rosentreter: Thank you all for listening today!
(Audience applauds)
Outro
Music: Joss Peach: Cherry On The Cake, licenced via sonoton.music
Speaker: “Spektrakulär: Parents Explore Autism.”
Mirjam Rosentreter: You can find more information and links related to this episode on our website spektrakulaer.de.
Speaker: The podcast from the Martinsclub Bremen.
Music stops
Speaker: Sponsored by the Heidehof Foundation, the Waldemar Koch Foundation, and the Aktion Mensch.
Another Speaker: Edited and produced by Mirjam Rosentreter in collaboration
with Selbstverständlich, an agency for accessible communication.
…
Shownotes
Note: We do not assume any liability for links to external sources.
Spektrakulär on Instagram
@spektrakulaer_podcast
About our guests
Maja Toudal, autistic psychologist, speaker, author, and mother of a young child from Denmark
Forside
books: https://majatoudal.com/books/
Projects and Podcast: https://energyaccounting.com/
Autistic tidbits and tangents – Podcast with Dr. Kary Dymond
Bo Hejlskov Elvén, neuropsychologist, speaker, author, and father of autistic children from Sweden
Website: https://eng.hejlskov.se/
Books: https://eng.hejlskov.se/books/
Podcast: https://hejlskovogveje.podbean.com/
Topics
Interaction between autistic and non-autistic people
(2025): “Information transfer within and between autistic and non-autistic people”
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-025-02163-z
(2025): “Autistic and non-autistic prosocial decision-making: The impact of recipient neurotype”
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S3050656525001828
(2025): “Rethinking Face-to-Face Interaction: Lessons from Studies of “Autistic Sociality”
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/symb.70017
(2023): “Seeking contexts that promote neurodiverse social success: Patterns of behavior during minimally-structured interaction settings in autistic and non-autistic youth”
(2020): „Study Challenges Assumptions About Social Interaction Difficulties in Autism.
Study Challenges Assumptions About Social Interaction Difficulties in Autism
Autism-friendly communication
“Is there such a thing as ‘Neurodiversity Affirming Social Skills Training’?”
Neurodiversity Affirming Social Skills Training
(2020): “What those not on the autism spectrum should know. (zu einer Aufklärungs-Initiative amerikanischer autistischer Studierender“
https://iidc.indiana.edu/irca/articles/what-those-not-on-the-autism-spectrum-should-know.html
Michelle Garnett und Tony Attwood (2024): “How Do We Create a Neurodiversity-affirming Family Environment?”
Diverse city Malmö
OECD (2016): “Working Together – Skills and Labour Market Integration of Immigrants and their Children in Sweden”
Study of Dr. Bernd Parusel (2015) https://www.bpb.de/system/files/dokument_pdf/Country%20Profile%20Sweden_2015_0.pdf
Stimming
(2025) “Autistic stimming explained – and why stopping it can lead to burnout”
Megan Anna Neff (2023): “Autism in the Classroom: How to Be Autism-Affirming”
(2019) “‘People should be allowed to do what they like’: Autistic adults’ views and experiences of stimming”
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6728747
PDA – Pathological Demand-Avoidance vs. Persistent Drive for Autonomy
“What is PDA? Understanding Pathological Demand Avoidance (Persistent Drive for Autonomy)”
What is PDA?
(2024): “Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) and Autism: A Guide For Allies”
Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) and Autism: A Guide For Allies
Computer gaming and social belonging
(2024) “Is there evidence that playing games promotes social skills training for autistic children and youth?”
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11816463
(2023) “’More Than a Game’: An Autistic Perspective on the Power of Video Gaming”
“More Than a Game”: An Autistic Perspective on the Power of Video Gaming
“Screens Are Infrastructure: Gaming, Screen Use, Neurodiversity, and Disability”
Screens Are Infrastructure: Gaming, Screen Use, Neurodiversity, and Disability
Autonomy
(2025) “How do we support autonomy for autistic individuals?”
How do we support autonomy for autistic individuals?
(2019) “Autism, autonomy, and authenticity“
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7039841
Selfdetermination-Theory
Selfdetermination-Theory by Deci & Ryan
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/self-determination-theory
Attunement
Daniel Stern on attunement
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4278751
“It’s never too late to give in”
Ronny Eriksson
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronny_Eriksson
Furry Convention
Nordicfuzzcon in Malmö
On Furry Conventions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furry_convention
Energyaccounting
Majas Toudal‘s Concept of Energyaccounting
Forside